Update for 8/14/14

SFW!

Let’s Hateo Kaito Rapeo!

Prostitutes r’ Us

Linny pic by friend of the blog Annasaugi2!

Pardon me while I continue to laugh at the people  who comment, “Is she supposed to be childish?” and “What a terrible person she is for being feminine.”

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100 Responses to Update for 8/14/14

  1. Bastet says:

    My knee jerk reaction to this page… I was just vaguely creeped out. By the page… by their ‘sorry for the cockblocking’ note… by the comments…

    And then… What do the authors want us to think here??

    That’s she’s some sort of child bride? That all this means she’s an innocent person? That someone as “frilly” as this obviously can’t be the right person for a man like Atros…?? I mean, look at all the teddy bears, no wonder the poor man acts like he does, or…?? Is that what we’re suppose to think? Or that his expression in the last panel means he’s realizing what a douchebag he’s being to his wife, and so we are again to be reminded he’s a ‘good guy’, deep inside. And the author’s note says he’s the ‘guy everybody loves to hate’, so are the Atros haters suppose to feel bad now? … …

    Yeah, I’m lost!

    And does it annoy me how they constantly jump between scenes like this… Yes, it does. If they ever stay with one storyline more than a page or two, it’s only to add three more pages of meaningless filler!

    • Wanda says:

      I honestly think her child-like nature could be really super interesting . . . with a good writer. As it stands, it’s just some way for the readers to mock her for being into bows and teddy bears.

      I mean, I assume this girl has grown up rich and was coddled and babied by her wealthy parents. She never learned how to deal with reality, which could explain all the super girly paraphernalia. But you’d think being married to Atros would wake her up– he doesn’t strike me as a very doting husband. In fact, he’s prone to anger spurts, meaning that perhaps her previous inclination toward girly things changed into an obsession, a way to hide away from her unhappiness.

      But whatever, let’s just make jokes about bows on the chandelier.

      • Bastet says:

        Yes, I think they must have some kind of record in bringing up potentially interesting themes… that they then never make anything interesting of! It’s rather frustrating!

        It really does seem like they invented Yvette only to be an annoying enough character that readers (they hope) would feel Atros is at least somewhat justified in his behavior. Which is just… But it seems to be working rather well with some of their readership.

        So many missed opportunities for some depth!

        • Wanda says:

          It’s almost enough to make me want to write some AU where all the characters are non-awful adults with real personalities, but then I know that would mean putting more thought into it than the authors did, and that’s a waste of my time.

          I’m shocked they didn’t make her more like Lilith, but yes, this is a definite way to make their readers be all “PFFFT, what man would want her anyway?” As if a woman’s personality is a green light for her spouse cheating. I don’t care how awful she is– if he had any gonads at all, he’d be honest with her. It’s made even worse in that she does seem nice, if not clueless. It’s not like she’s abusing him or screaming at him or whatever. She’s just, uh, odd.

          • Bastet says:

            I’m shocked they didn’t make her more like Lilith

            That would have been the easiest way to go about it, so I guess we have to give them some credit for taking the time to come up with several kinds of personalities we are suppose to hate so the “hero” can be justified in his shitty behavior! *snark*

            Yeah, historically, women’s personality and behavior has always been blamed for how men treat them. “If you were only more like this and that/if you were only less of this and that… He wouldn’t have tried to escape your marriage/look for it somewhere else!” Women has always been blamed and held responsible for the choices of their men! -.-

            Comics like this, and many of the fans’ reactions in accordance, show that, in some ways, very little have changed!

            If they had made a historical commentary about how shitty this attitude is… If there had been more discussions in the comment field about how this attitude prevails to this day… But, no…

            Well, I did read some nicely put comments to the contrary, too, so that was encouraging.

          • Haha as part of a writing exercise I had actually drabbled around with an alternate version of Teahouse. Trying to make it better but changing as little as possible to make it so. It’s a fun exercise, but the more I do it the more frustrating it gets trying to balance all new plot-lines without resolving any of the previous ones.

            I am glad they made her different from a Lillith or Gloria, and they have said they bear no ill will toward the character so that I can appreciate.

          • Bastet says:

            I had actually drabbled around with an alternate version of Teahouse. Trying to make it better but changing as little as possible to make it so.

            I’d love to read that! :-) As I’ve said, I kind of like the themes of Teahouse, it’s just they handle them so badly!

          • Haha it’s not an easy write. I would challenge people to take something crappy and rewrite it. It’s great writing practice and fun! (It’d be cool to see a bunch of people do a rewrite of teahouse to see the different versions we get.)

          • Bastet says:

            Well, I rewrite my own stuff all the time, so, I’d say I have loooots of experience rewriting crap :-D

      • wanderingaddict says:

        wanda that’s PERFECT! it’s like that heiress that died recently, Hugette Clark I think? who died alone, worth millions, but had a massive doll collection. the parallels to unhappiness and focusing on these collections of childhood memorabilia would be profoundly sad and an indication of extreme distress – particularly as she ages – and even more interesting if Atros married her early due to the death of her parents and her inheritance potentially no longer being hers at all!

        but yeah like, lawlz, there’s nothing of that at all.

        • Wanda says:

          I really think the authors are highly dedicated to the looks of their characters. Perhaps they did hours and hours of character creation, figuring out what tattoo and piercing went where. I see a lot of this from artists actually. They’re really in love with the appearance of characters, but go any deeper and there’s just . . . nothing. So I think the authors here love the LOOK of Atros’s wife, but they haven’t actually gone beyond that. It’s just sad.

          I think these authors and MIchael Bay would get along rather nicely.

      • They deride Yvette here for being girly but love Linneus.
        They deride Yvette for being so childish as to have teddybears in her home, but I bet they love Usagi from Junjou Romantica.

        You’re very right this could be worlds of potential blown to bits.

  2. Lurker says:

    Hahhah. Is it me or is Teahouse getting more and more dumb each update?

    Like, I get the feeling we’re supposed to feel sorry for Asstros because his wife is so immature and girly. Well, fuck that. It’s super hypocritical because Linneus has pink hair and a jewellery fetish for fuck’s sakes!! That’s not much different if you ask me… This page only makes me feel more sorry for Yvette because she was so sheltered that she married a complete asshole and didn’t know any better.

    And this is the third page where someone arrives someplace and maybe makes a vague face. Get to the story, why don’t cha?

    As for KS, you riffs here are perfect. I love the idea of them just drooling for no reason. And AP has probably never heard of sex positivity…

    • wanderingaddict says:

      that hypocritical comment was my first thought exactly. how is she NOT linneaus? I mean she doesn’t have a penis, but as we’ve seen, Atros isn’t interested in penises? he seems to like sex with women? I mean if his wife died her hair pink, her body is like… the exact fucking same as linneaus’s. her taste in decor certainly is the same! Atros ignores her the way he ignores linneaus, hurts her feelings the same as he hurts linneaus’s…. how are they different??

      • Wanda says:

        Well, if I have to take a moment to put myself into the mindset of a fangirl, I can vaguely see some differences. Linneaus, while being very fancy, does wear childish clothing, and with all his faults, he doesn’t strike me as particularly naive. What we see here with Atros’s wife and Lilith is the virgin/whore complex, and demonizing both. Atros’s wife isn’t a virgin, but she’s clearly not designed to have any sexuality. Lilith has a sexuality and is condemned for it.

        Meanwhile, Linneaus manages to encompass both: being both sexually experienced and yet innocent in appearance, with no agency or strength of his own.

        it seems Atros has a boner for wilting flowers, amirite?

        • Bastet says:

          There were a few fans who kindly enlightened us about this most distinctive difference. You see Linneus does girly in an elegant and tasteful way. Yvette just does girly in a tasteless and stupid way, or… something. I mean… it’s obvious, you guys!!!

          I like your analysis of Linneus! Again, he could have been an interesting character, in the right hands!

          • Wanda says:

            There are “right” ways to be feminine, mind you. Step a toe outta line and we’ll bitch your ass right out! That’s basically the patriarchy in a nutshell: “It’s okay to be girly, but you have to do it in the right way.”

    • When I said the story wasn’t going to start for several pages, my intent was to exaggerate, not to tell the truth. Way to prove me right.

      The hypocrisy in the comments is overwhelming, “lol no wonder he doesn’t love her she’s so girly! Omg I ship him with linneus cause linneus is so girly!”

      Yeah I was baffled by the spontaneous drool as well. In the KS page Kaito says “More” and Shuno literally shuts down the sex because he cannot fathom that Kaito is enjoying it, but it is implied he only is behaving that way to give Shuno a good ~last night~ shag. Fucking come on AP!

  3. Wanda says:

    In the authors’ comments, didn’t they say that they were RETURNING to Rhys and Axis next page? What. The. Fuck. Pacing! Try it out some time! What was the point of inserting this page in the middle of that other scene? This could have been introduced at any point, and you choose it to be in the middle of a scene? I’m kind of scared that one of the authors is in film school now– it does not bode well for the layout of future films.

    There is so much potential with all of this page. It shows that Atros is never home and not in charge of the house. If he were, certainly it would not be overrun by lolita-style bows and shit. Anyone who obsesses over theme decorating to this degree has to be at least slightly unhappy with their own life, which is no real shocker because duh, Atros is a tool. I don’t know. His wife just strikes me as someone who’s kind of depressed and lonely.

    Of course, the authors won’t show that. They’ll just make jokes about how she’s totally immature and lol, Atros has a stupid ditzy wife.

    Also, between panels 2 and 3 it seems they added a huge room on out of nowhere. I’m trying to figure out how the house works.

  4. Bastet says:

    It’s been said before, I think, but it bears repeating. It really does seem to me like the authors deliberately create all people around Atros to be “flawed” (what they consider flaws) in some way, or other, just so that poor Atro’s behavior can be justified to a certain degree (or completely, I don’t know how far they mean to take this).

    “Lilith is a cold bitch who looks like a man in drag! Yvette is a childish airhead with too many teddy bears. Linneus is passive aggressive and sleeps with other men – is it a wonder that Atros treats them all so badly!?!”

    /sarcasm

    Reading the comments, many readers ARE interpreting the situation just like this, and defends Atros on these exact grounds, with no regards to these peoples’ situation! (Yeah, blame Linneus for sleeping with others, it’s not like he’s an enslaved whore who does what Atros demands of him, or anything… Sheesh!)

    If the authors didn’t mean for this to be the case, they sure aren’t trying very hard to persuade people out of these notions.

    • wanderingaddict says:

      Lilith looks like a man in drag?? do girls really say that? She is like… the hottest fucking gal in this comic! I mean, I know I have a thing for ice-cold bitches, but fuck, LINNEAUS looks like a man in drag!!

      • Bastet says:

        Yeah, way back, I saw a few comments to that effect. They thought with all the make up, she looked like a man in drag. I guess it’s supposed to be an insult -.-

        Is one of us commenting over there? :-) I saw a comment which criticized Atros, pretty much the way we do here, and it of course got several replies already, defending him

        • Wanda says:

          Yeah, they shouldn’t talk shit about drag queens, man. I’d consider it a compliment to be compared to RuPaul or Willam or something. They’re way sexier than I am.

          Note: Lilith does not actually look like a man in drag. That’s preposterous. God forbid any animu woman have a nose and small boobs.

      • Linneus bitches, “Are men still confusing you for a man in drag?” to Lilith at the beginning of the comic.
        That was the first and last time Linneus had any agency, and it was wasted on shitting on one of the good characters.

        • cc says:

          Comments like that (made by the characters) always strike me as weird since well, everyone has serious sameface going on like your Pimpy on Rory shoop showcases.

          (Not that Pinky is right or nice to say it, but those kinds of exchanges bother the crap out of me!)

        • Bastet says:

          Now I remember!!! I knew I’d seen it somewhere! Typical, that if there was any discussion about whether Lilith looked like a man in drag or not, it would have been spawned by something a character actually said! -.-

          Okay, I don’t really have a problem with characters saying and doing a lot of problematic things. It would be a boring work of fiction if all your characters, except for the designated villain, would always say and do the right things. The setting, plot and individual situations often demand characters say and do problematic stuff, and if done well that can contribute to more well-rounded characters.

          As a writer, though, it can be really tricky to handle these situations, and not have it come across as if the things they say and do is your own real life views. If it comes out of the mouth of the unambiguous villain, the audience will get that immediately. It’s the character, not the author. But if it’s not the villain? Sometimes the scene doesn’t allow for the character to be corrected, interrupted or lectured by another character, and if you include too much protestations about the problematic stuff in the narrative the story risks coming across as preachy.

          You often have to be more subtle, and show it later, in for example how the problematic behavior has consequences, and so on. It’s tricky, and full of traps, but it can be done.

          So, when I read, knowing how tricky this can be, I tend to give the authors the benefit of the doubt, that this is the character speaking, and that there’s some kind of meaning to why the authors chose to have them say this.

          In fanworks it’s often easier to sort these things out. You have a canon character to compare with. Is it normal for this character to do and say problematic things? If it isn’t, and the character-change has no good explanation, well then you can often safely assume that this isn’t a character speaking, it’s a character being made a mouthpiece for the author’s own real life views.

          With original content this is trickier. Still, with Linneus, does it seem in character to say that? As you said, he hasn’t shown any agency before or since. And these authors have given plenty of clues that they have problematic views themselves.

          So, yeah, it was the only time Linneus showed this kind of behavior, because it wasn’t really him speaking. It was the authors!

          That’s my theory! :-)

          • I dig this rant! Writing problematic viewpoints is very tricky to do, and when I write I usually have characters call each other out whenever I can. (Maybe it’s just because it’s one of the most fun scenes to write.)

            Pinky’s sass could very well be just their viewpoint.

          • Thera says:

            Hm, well, it’s always obvious when the bully is being a bully in a series right?
            There’s always obvious visual cues, like the characters face distorting to something unhuman like, because problematic things are always a reflection of a blindspot of sorts inside the character.

            Say, here with insults toward Lillith, it describes Linneus’ jealousy and powerlessness, and he lashes out to Lillith because in his anger he degrades her to a punching bag. A different kind of objectifying than we’re usually treated to in romance :)
            To emphasize this point, they could’ve had him literally breach her personal space aggresively. So, pulling her hair in passing by while saying that, or pulling her dress, let him go all evil steph sister on Lillith.
            Unfortunately they want him to be perfect so even when saying offensive things, he’s not allowed to act them out and describe to us how he sees her.

            Like you said, mismatch also kinda implies that they don’t think he’s saying problematic things to begin with and that treating others like a punching bag is a-okay!

            But, expression is pretty powerful and the author’s/artist’s main goal ought to be not to describe problematic words, but to display problematic ways of thinking and the things they say and the things they do harmonize with eachother on the base of problematic thinking.

          • Trying to make your characters perfect is an enormous NO-NO!

            It’s very easy to understand that Pinky would lash out with the same brand of insults as Lillith does. Saying it’s okay for him to talk down to her when she’s in the same shitty situation as he is, is bullshit.

  5. cc says:

    God my brain is doing the OVERDRIVE “fill in the gaps because the actual content is shit”.

    I feel like they’re trying to paint Pimpy as this guy who doesn’t know how the FUCK to deal with people. He “does” actually spoil his wife rotten because he’s allowed/supposed to, it makes him feel better about how he treats people at the whorehouse. And he “knows” he’s a tool for doing it but cannot/does not stop.

    He’s barely at home because he thinks he isn’t worth hanging out with and that in turn just hurts her more because a grownass man doesn’t know how to communicate with the people he’s wed to and he thinks MARTYRING himself is some kind of penance.

    Her getting preggers could also be something that actually makes him feel worse since it is an undeniable reminder that he cannot “be” with the person he wants to be (Pinky) so that just makes him more aggressively avoid his wife as his last stand as a denial tactic. (How she got preggers is because again, he won’t say no to his innocent wife, alternatively, he interpreted her decorating of childish things to be that she REALLY WANTED a child and again, he cannot deny her this since she is the only person he’s allowed to be kind to- even if her obsession with ribbons/dolls could actually be HER coping mechanism for how lonely she feels as others have said.)

    But THEN ALL OF THAT FLIES IN THE FACE OF HOW HE TREATS GODDAMN LILTH AND EVERYONE ELSE. How he treats her and how she’s used as another player in this stupid dramatic orbit around his cock makes what I just typed out IMPOSSIBLE.

    See that whole premise I laid out might WORK somewhat if Pimpy were NOT the sole-proprietor of the whorehouse or if there was a tighter focus on how classism in this setting works or you know, if he having these interactions with these people in fucking voids so that he is socially pressured in to acting this way. (Or *GASP* actually showing how he flatly cannot wrap his brain around the social indoctrination of how he is supposed to act)

    AND if we went with this setup we could *GASP* feel bad/angry about the setting and circumstances all of these characters are thrown into instead of going “”hot man” make sad face, STORY SO DEEP :,,,((((”

    Lastly, FUCK this pacing, nothing was established, at this rate this comic will just be “SAD STARES IN STERILE SITUATIONS: THE WEBCOMIC”

    • Wanda says:

      The fans’ brains are going into overdrive too. Generally I feel like making your fans think is a good thing, but in Teahouse’s case it’s not. Speculating what characters’ personalities are like is the very opposite of what you want fans to do. >.<

      They should rename the comic "The Story of Atros's Boner", cuz that really does seem to be the main plot point. I don't feel bad for him because he put himself in this fucking situation. I'm not sure how women's rights are in this comic, but if it's like Victorian society, women do not have the right to divorce a man. Which means his wife cannot leave him, and the only way for her to get any love from anyone is to have a baby. Meanwhile, he owns a bunch of sex slaves that he could most likely free on a whim if he wanted to, and if they still wanted to whore around well dangnabbit they could still do that.

      It drives me crazy in both real life and fiction when a person sits around and thinks "WHY ME" about drama that THEY THEMSELVES have created.

      • cc says:

        I don’t mind “WHY ME” as an explicit personality flaw or has a cathartic payoff since people like that do exist and I’d be in denial I wasn’t giddy when a character like that got punched literally or metaphorically.

        But a LOT of stories get this wrong or have no payoff and TH manages to do the worst of it because of the character himself and the godawful pacing

    • It would be nice if he was spoiling her but it seems as if her family is loaded so it would seem silly to shower her with gifts. Though it would be a nice touch to see him doing so in an awkward fashion just because he doesn’t know what else to do in order to treat her nice. They could bond over the fact that both of them were spoiled financially but not in terms of actual tenderness. lol too much thought!

      Yeah there are a million reasons why he keeps away it could be guilt, awkwardness, and/or doesn’t want to fulfill his marriage “duties.” I mean I like the idea that he’s a totally different person when he’s at home, in a sort of repentance way. However, it looks as if he’s definitely not.

      I also love the idea that she’s really latched onto the idea of having a child. She’s not getting much of perhaps anybody’s attention and a way to cope with that is to raise a child. (Doesn’t mean the child will be great or anything.)

      I would enjoy seeing how Atros was raised not to treat his slaves as human, so he’s seeing them through tinted glasses. Perhaps reevaluates the whole thing because of his feelings for Pinky. HAHA naaaaaaaaaaah.

      This page’s content (IF THEY REALLY NEEDED IT WHICH THEY DON’T REALLY) should have been at most 2 panels instead of an entire page and should have been placed….somewhere besides in the middle of that rhys/axis scene.

  6. cc says:

    Also I think AP has a drool fetish since I swear almost all of the sex scenes have drool, or the comic she “borrows” from just uses drool a lot, but what else is new about the KaitoShito?

  7. Aristocratic glutes says:

    “MY LOVER*cough*victim*cough*KISSES ME ON THE CHEEK AND ASKS FOR MORE DURING SEX”

    “AT THAT POINT IM SURE SOMETHING IS WRONG”

    • Lurker says:

      Ha ha! Yeah, the fuck! You’re actually enjoying the sex? What is going on!?!? Sure, seems like they’ve been having totally consensual and mutually enjoyable sex. Right. KS is such a piece of shit!

  8. RayneofCastamere says:

    Considering she’s the one with the money and, presumably, is the one buying the stuff for their home, she can decorate it any damn way she pleases. On top of that, she’s the one that has to stay there all day while hubby fucks around with his sex slave.

    A Pimp Named Jackass’s wife deserves so much better than the douche she got.

    • cc says:

      I don’t recall if she actually the one with money? IDK the “plot” of TH is so plodding I probably forgot it if it was mentioned.

      Saying this because I cannot fathom a SINGLE FUCKING REASON why if she has that kind of money why Pimpy has to keep running hisill-researched excuse of a whorehouse.)

      • RayneofCastamere says:

        Because he’s TEH MAN and TEH MAN has to be the top earner in the house! Even if he’s the worst businessman ever and just uses his “business” as an excuse to enact his sick power fantasies over people who can’t do anything to push back.

      • It is ~implied~ she is because of her spoiled attitude and the fact she has mentioned her father in order to threaten pimpy. Her father at least has to be powerful in some capacity.
        My bet is the brothel is only running with his financial assistance, which is why he was forced to marry and stay together with her.

  9. Bastet says:

    Goodness… reading through the comments again, right now I’m just so pissed off, I think I need to not go there in a while. It’s one thing to read a bunch of stupid comments, but when some people actually take the time to comment sensibly, they get the stupidest fucking push back and arguments! :-(

    One comment lays out in nice polite words why they don’t like Atros, and how their sympathy is with Yvette. Another person agrees and say they are doing some panel work at cons trying to put a light on the internalized misogyny in media like Teahouse, and asks if they can quote this comment about Yvette.

    Fan 1 then chimes in asking what exactly they mean by the work they do against misogyny. The fan gets an explanation, and then Fan 2 jumps in with this pearl of a comment:

    “Wow…
    So basically you are shaming women who, in fiction works, have a preference over a trope or some kind of characters instead of other ones.
    I consider this quite misogynistic.

    But I come from a country where women still have to fight for basic civil rights in real life, so that’s probably why I don’t get your effort.”

    That just pissed me off!

    Yes, people have the right to have whichever preferences they have, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t criticize the fictional work which stems from these preferences, and that we can’t study how it plays into the real life instances of misogyny we see. How much are these works a symptom of, and a mirror of the real world – how much does it influence people, and perpetuate the problems?? and so on… There is much to say and discuss which isn’t necessarily about shaming women for liking m/m stuff or for having kinks and preferences.

    As for her second remark… Yeah, of course, we can’t fight misogyny in many different ways, on many different layers, attacking the problem from different angles, and each do the piece we can, or point out in just how many ways these things can manifest itself… We can’t possibly be doing several things at once either, no. You talk about this at con panels, you have probably never done anything else about the problem ever. This commenter can tell, because… No they can’t!

    No, according to them, we must only fight the biggest and most obvious cases, and everything else is a wasted effort and probably just whining!

    I wonder do they realize how often this is used as a silencing tactic against feminists? “Shut up! Unless you lose the right to vote again, you have nothing to complain about!” I see it all the time.

    Well, I promised myself to never comment there again, so I just had to come here and rant! Sorry!

    • Wanda says:

      Anyone who uses the “you can’t complain about sexism here because it’s so much worse elsewhere” is a fucking idiot. Yeah, well, there are people dying of ebola in Sierra Leone. Does that mean we’re not allowed to treat people with less severe sicknesses here? People are being beheaded by IS in Iraq. Does that mean the people in Ferguson don’t have the right to protest a kid being murdered by a cop? It’s such a dumb fucking argument.

      Lol “shaming women who have a preference for misogynist characters”. What did that become a thing? They sound like MRAs with their “creep shaming”. Just because it makes you feel bad doesn’t mean it’s “shaming”. In order to shame someone, a history of oppression has to come with it. I don’t think any of us here are “oppressing” Teahouse fans.

      • Rita says:

        “____shaming” is just one of those terms that has been overused by certain types to the point of having become absolutely meaningless.

        • Wanda says:

          Yeah, it becomes one of those buzzwords that loses meaning, like “hipster”. WHEN EVERYONE IS A HIPSTER, NO ONE IS. Plus, what shame is there in liking stupid stuff anyway? I love certain Jeffree Star albums. They are terrible. But whatever man, YOLO. However, if someone told me they were terrible, I wouldn’t be like “STOP SHAMING MY ABILITY TO LIKE SHITTY MUSIC”. I’d be like “lol, yeah.”

          The self-awareness is not strong with these ones.

          • Rita says:

            Jeffree Star is awesomely terrible. One of my guilty pleasures as well, haha.

          • Wanda says:

            I gotta give him some credit, because when I look over his Tumblr, he generally seems like a supportive, nice person. His main audience is teenage girls, and he’s always talking about accepting your weird self and ignoring bullies, which I think is a good message for them to hear.

          • Bastet says:

            Had not heard of Jeffree Star, so went to google his name!

            Oh, I’ve seen pics before, he’s gorgeous!! But had no idea who he was or what he did.

          • Wanda says:

            J Star became famous on MySpace many years ago and did his first music track as a joke. Then it got popular and so he decided to do more. It’s sad that I know this, but now he’s creating his own make-up line, which is much more catered to his talents (because he is VERY good at make-up).

          • Bastet says:

            because he is VERY good at make-up

            Yeah, I’ll say… if he does all his own make-up, he sure is!

      • Bastet says:

        It’s up there in the top five of most stupidest arguments ever, all right -.- You translate that into any other kind of problems, as you did, anyone sees at once how stupid it is, but it gets used against feminist all the time. Pisses me off!

        Ha ha, yes :-) When is it a thing? Creep shaming sounds if it’s in the same category yes!

        Many people do have sexual fantasies that aren’t politically correct, but it’s another discussion.

        Yeah, there’s certainly no shaming over there of fangirls making a hero of a misogynistic douchebag! There is a discussion about it, a very polite one at that, and then a bunch of defensive fangirls! -.-

        Also, my main concern with Teahouse in particular has always been that the authors and many of the fans obviously have these misogynistic ideas in real life, and don’t even understand what the problem is! And how that comes through in the comic and in the comment field.

        If this had been a dark comic, dealing with problematic themes, with the authors showing awareness of the distinction between a kink which works only as a fantasy, and fucking real life concerns and problems. If they had warned properly for the content, and had been willing to discuss the problematic issues. If they had shown by, again, warnings and disclaimers, that they are aware this would be problematic in real life… I would have had no problems. There is kink, I get that, I have them. If there is also awareness, then, I personally, am usually okay with problematic themes in fiction. It can be done with awareness, with discussions, with subversions of tropes, with warnings and disclaimers, and… again… awareness.

        I think it’s this complete unawareness, and this dismissive attitude I have the most problem with.

        • Wanda says:

          I always think that the more defensive you are of something, the more you doubt its integrity. Like those homophobes who are CONSTANTLY bitching about gay people– clearly they have something inside of them that feels doubtful. Same goes for crazy Christians who can’t accept any science. If they were completely confident in their faith, then they would just shrug and say “Yeah, okay, whatever, climate change, evolution– none of it disproves God’s existence.” My dad has said it’s the difference between knowing and believing. Those who know aren’t intimidated by outside opinions, just those who “believe”.

          So I do think these fangirls know deep inside that these are not good themes or tropes. If they were utterly confident in the work, then they’d accept the criticism and move on. I have read criticism of things I’ve enjoyed, and I feel absolutely no desire to attack that criticism (well, unless it’s totally ridiculous). Part of me hopes it’s because they’re young, and they don’t know how to deal with criticism yet. But I’m sure many of them are older, because hey, without older morons, we wouldn’t have 50 Shades of Grey.

          The biggest problem is that you can’t talk to them. You can’t explain yourself, because they have no interest in what you have to say. And if you’re not talking to a rational person, then you kinda just have to throw up your hands and say “I’m out”. That’s why I don’t read the comments of Teahouse. Just too much illogical stupid, and no one’s looking to be educated.

          • I totally agree with all of this!

          • Rita says:

            I am so over fandoms in general. It’s not possible to just like something, you must let it be your entire identity. For instance, I like Lady Gaga a lot. Been to concerts and all. But I’ll never ever label myself a Little Monster, because what music I like has nothing to do with who I am as a person. It feels really.. I dunno, assimilative.
            Sorry, slightly off-topic. It just bugs me a lot is all ;x

            You and your dad are completely right by the way. And again, I’d have a lot more respect if someone took the honest route and went “Yeah, I know some of these themes are problematic, but I get off to it, so I really don’t care”.
            Denying the misogyny in Teahouse and its kind is no different from denying that US Angel Corpse has some issues with sex and women.
            ..Actually this is worse, because you can at least say that USAC’s fans are creepy delusional manchildren and what the hell do they know anyway, but this fandom is mainly women. Internalized misogyny is the worst misogyny :c

          • krissa says:

            That way you use the word educate, that is very patronizing. It makes you sound like a self-righteous jerk. But it’s very entertaining to see you dig yourself a deeper hole.

            And you, just like a good Christian mission marching on, fighting the good fight. Oh wait, you called them crazy christians. Well you still act just like a crazy Christian. So why should I listen to anything you say. For just like the crazy Christian you are a hypocrite.

            Now please, continue tell how you are right and how others are so.

            TTFN

          • Hey look Wanda you have hater, and a great one at that! Look at all those insults they aim at you, using massive leaps in logic or no logic at all!

            Are you trying to defend Teahouse Krissa? If so you’re only proving Wanda’s point.

          • Rita says:

            Oh boy..

          • Wanda says:

            @krissa: Speaking of “illogical stupid” . . . I shouldn’t reply, but I will anyway.

            People should always be willing to be educated. People who refuse to accept new information to inform their opinions are idiots. If you only want people to agree with you all the time, then you talk to yourself in the mirror. Otherwise you have to accept that sometimes others will disagree with you, and their opinions can sometimes be better informed and more educated than your own. It’s called “learning” and it’s a good thing, and it happens far beyond high school and college (hopefully).

            I cannot figure out if you like Teahouse or if you just object to my opinion of fundamentalists, but please, if you want to educate me on your point of view, I’d be very interested in hearing it.

          • cc says:

            I’ve kind of withheld commenting because on one hand I get your gist, on another it’s easy to twist and reinterpret what you mean into “if you have a lot to say, you’re in denial”.

            I *personally* just tend to stick to the basic argument rules since 99% of the time they are most objective way to deal with arguments or discussing conflicting ideas while still retaining content to be educated about.

            Take for example what Krissa just did, the entire post is just ad homenim, there isn’t an actual argument present because she did not actually address any of the points you posted.

            I also have a tiny bit of sympathy for some of the younger fans, because in a way “just accepting” the criticism is easy to spiral into other things- we all can’t ignore that most media aimed at women is either shit-talked or it’s intention/creation by or for women is stolen and then they’re told they aren’t allowed to enjoy it.

            I don’t agree with how some defend works but I can see how they are more emotionally invested in something.

            This doesn’t mean we should stop criticizing problematic things, but I feel it’s a bit of a disservice to do that kind of “you defend it more so that must mean you know you’re wrong” kind of thought. This is especially true of other media which does have problems but then good elements (if they have them) are ignored or incorrectly criticized.

            Oops, sorry for the info dump but TL;DR I don’t agree with the assessment that “defensive” = self-admitted defeat. I’m kind of certain that that is not your intent but I can see how someone reading from the outside could interpret it as such.

          • Wanda says:

            I get what you mean, because everyone defends what they believe in (for me, that’d probably be feminism, civil rights, etc). But there’s a difference between sticking up for what you believe in and attacking people who respectfully state their opinions.

            I myself can tell the difference, because I don’t get defensive over feminism, but I have gotten defensive over criticism of my stories. It feels different to me. Like, I don’t believe feminism, I know it. I’ve lived through experiences that feminism talks about. My stories are different. I am so emotionally involved in my characters, and so at times my mind would shut the door and say “NOPE. STOP IT. I AM ALWAYS RIGHT. GO AWAY”. Of course, with time and maturity I was able to go back to the criticism and say “Yes, you were right. I am sorry. I reacted emotionally.”

            Usually this kind of emotional reaction ends up in ad hominem, insults, threats, etc. I’m not going to tell a person with legitimate concerns about feminism to fuck off and die because I don’t have a purely emotional response to it. Some emotional response, sure, but also an intellectual one.

            That’s the best I can explain it. XD

          • Bastet says:

            “Christians who can’t accept any science”

            Such a weird thing to me… As I mentioned somewhere below, I’m Scandinavian. Over here, our societies are mostly secular, and though there are, of course, religious people over here as well, religion isn’t really done that much here, on the whole. There are probably, for example, creationist here as well, but you could easily go most of your life without ever running into one. I’ve only ever met one, in person, in my whole 44 year old life, and he was an American visiting over here :-)

            He talked about Satan planting dinosaur bones in the earth to confuse us and tempt us, and that the earth was 6000 years old, and so on… and I was completely stunned! Back then (almost 20 years ago) I had never heard of those view points before. Well, then I got the Internet and realized he wasn’t alone…

            Well, yeah, we have problematic stuff over here as well, in many ways, but not so much of this particular kind.

          • Wanda says:

            Yeah, for some reason my ancestors had the bright idea to leave Scandinavia and come to the US, which SUCKS cuz I could have been born in Sweden and I think I’d be happier. XD

            I think the US can track this particular brand of crazy back to the Puritans. Apparently they thought England was too tolerant of other relgions, which is why they came here. And we’ve been dealing with their shit ever since.

          • Bastet says:

            Yup, Sweden is my country! :-) Some of my ancestors emigrated, too. I have relatives still living in Washington (the state, not DC).

            Heh… some things do seem better here (though I might be biased) but, yeah, we have plenty of problems over here as well. Few fundamentalist Christians, yes, but plenty of other annoying people :-D

            Well, the USA have an interesting history. Another reason I’ve heard for the prevalence of religion in the USA, while western Europe is rather secularized is that, ironically, over here we had a monarchy and a single state church, which turned into a bland boring “obligatory” and rather lethargic institution that, eventually, almost no one cared about. While you had separation of church and state, which made competing churches actively fight to draw members.

            Could be something to that I guess.

            Well, Sweden simply got rid of our state church (the Church of Sweden) in, I think, 2000, and now also have complete separation of church and state. Very few even noticed when this happened.

          • krissa says:

            Firstly, if I were a hater I would have gone to your comic and spewed my hatred over each page. Or I would have created a page where I would distort your work. Day in and day out, year after year. That’s what a hater does.

            But this is about education, and when you are talking about educating people, it doesn’t get me thinking about higher education or analysis or discussion. No, it reminds me of indoctrination.

            Hello: like Gulag in URSS, detention camps where prisoners had to learn the correct doctrine and concept were forced on them agains their will.

            But maybe you do not like democracy, where every person has the right to think, and have ideas of their own without fearing retaliation.

            Maybe you agree that preachers should be able to stop the women who are on the way in to have an abortion. They just want to teach the woman that she is “wrong”.

            Educating people go in two directions. If You get to “educate” people on how wrong they are, then so do the MRA.

            However good an idea may be, one must remember that the end do not always justifies the means.

            This is getting to be a pretty interesting discussion of free will and the desire to force anyone to agree with one’s own ideas.
            Now how was this page called? Kawaii is cute …?

          • cc says:

            @krissa
            “Firstly, if I were a hater I would have gone to your comic and spewed my hatred over each page. Or I would have created a page where I would distort your work. Day in and day out, year after year. That’s what a hater does.”
            Let’s get one thing straight, criticism and parody does not equal to hatred.

            Also the false assumption that all people will react the same- I for one would welcome such lavish attention and harsh criticism.

            The million dollar question of this discussion is what, in your opinion is the difference between a hater and someone who criticizes or sporks a work’s problematic elements/and or weaknesses.

            “But this is about education, and when you are talking about educating people, it doesn’t get me thinking about higher education or analysis or discussion. No, it reminds me of indoctrination.”
            And there we go off topic because you cannot put forth the effort to read or construct an actual argument to what Wanda said.

            “Hello: like Gulag in URSS, detention camps where prisoners had to learn the correct doctrine and concept were forced on them agains their will.”
            Ah yes riffing a yaoi comic is the equal of Gulag.

            “But maybe you do not like democracy, where every person has the right to think, and have ideas of their own without fearing retaliation.”
            Democracy is a political system. Freedom of speech means that the government cannot censor you from voicing your opinion. There is no one policing anyone’s thoughts here since it is kept to an isolated site and it has no power over who chooses to view its content or not.

            It is also not “retaliation” to have people tell you that your ideas are wrong, especially since you have not actually constructed an argument aside from extremely vague and tangential topics that have nothing to do with the content being riffed on this site.

            “Maybe you agree that preachers should be able to stop the women who are on the way in to have an abortion. They just want to teach the woman that she is “wrong”.”
            Another tangent and even citing this issues proves how little you grasp. This site actually criticizes misogynistic subtext and actual text of the comics being riffed here.

            “Educating people go in two directions. If You get to “educate” people on how wrong they are, then so do the MRA.”
            The problem here is that you have not actually constructed an argument or topic you wish to discuss making all of these topics utterly unfocused and makes you come off as being someone grasping at straws and false equivalences to make people stop riffing a comic you enjoy or the imaginary “hurt” feelings of authors who are either unaware of this site or don’t care.

            “However good an idea may be, one must remember that the end do not always justifies the means.”
            I would love to hear what “end” this site is hoping to achieve and how it goes about achieving those means is somehow in the wrong.

            “This is getting to be a pretty interesting discussion of free will and the desire to force anyone to agree with one’s own ideas.”
            Is English your first language, honest question here.

            No one expects to change your mind (Wanda said as much), and I expect even less for you to construct an argument since you pretty much came out of nowhere because Wanda dared to call out misogyny in media. Especially since you’re preemtively talking about “force” and whatnot.

            What on earth constitutes as discussion if dissenting opinions are considered acts of indoctrination?

            Some tips:
            -Have an actual argument or idea of what you want to discuss
            -If your statement can easily be found on a list of fallacies there is a problem (the personal insults and comparing riffing a yaoi comic to stripping people of free will is hyperbolic and irrelevant)
            -Get some evidence or state the logic of how you think the criticisms of the comic or comic’s elements are unfounded

            eg: If you think TH isn’t misogynistic, explain! If you think KS is well-drawn, explain! If you think that someone kicking and screaming “NO” while sexual things are done against their will isn’t rape, explain!

            We want some discussion, so discuss something!

          • Wanda says:

            @cc: Thank you. I think you about covered what I considered saying. XD

            @krissa: If you have legitimate criticisms about my webcomic and how it can be improved that run in the same vein as some of the critical yet polite opinions on the Teahouse page, I’d love to hear them! And if you want to start your own website called “WANDASCOMICSSUX” then you are within your right to do that. You can even find followers who agree with you to talk about how I’m a USSR sympathizer and anti-Christian and anti-abortion. It’s a free country, man. I’m sure someone out there hates my work, and that’s cool. I probably don’t want to FIND those people because I don’t have a thing for self-flagellation, but they can say whatever they like about me.

            The thing about a free country is that no one is being forced to learn anything. I am not “indoctrinating” anyone unless I somehow conjure a militia and point guns to people’s heads. This is one website out of millions on the internet, and I’m allowed to lament that anonymous fangirls are super defensive and reactionary about polite critiques to maybe the fifteen or twenty people who are regulars here. If Faps and any other adminstrator doesn’t like it, they can tell me to go to hell and I’ll leave.

        • You’re right for Teahouse it is a total unawareness. They claim there is no rape in this comic and it disgusts them but they’re in a brothel where they can’t say no and in one of the sextras Axis punches Rhys to get him from penetrating him but Rhys only ties him down so he can finish.

          They also seemingly have no idea that their comic is pretty much sexual slavery and how that’s not a glamorous thing.

          • Bastet says:

            Yeah, and it drives me bonkers!

            How can they not see that what they have written and drawn is rape???

            They act as if they are gods of their creation, and so they know all about it, and can tell us if it’s rape or not, no matter what it looks like.

            Okay, in one sense, that is true! When you create fiction, you are “god” of your own world, but, actually, only to a certain extent.

            It doesn’t mean you can totally screw with logic, and then expect people to just accept your word on that it’s not what it looks like.

            You can’t paint a red square and then claim it’s blue, only because you painted it!

            I saw the sextras where Rhys tied Axis up, and that is a red square you can’t claim is blue! And if you can’t see you did a rape scene… then I worry what things you would let pass in real life…

            I don’t worry people do fictional rape scenes in itself. There are many ways and reasons to do that, each to be discussed on their own merits, as the case might be. I worry they don’t know they’ve made one!

          • YESSSSSSS THIS WHOLE COMMENT!

            I’ve seen so many defend works with, “Well that’s not how they meant it!” Some people are just straight up ignorant on consent/abuse/racism/sexism/etc. So fuck you if its the color red I’m going to call it red.

  10. Bastet says:

    I learn things all the time here, or are made to see things from a different perspective, or get a chance to reflect on myself.

    I agree, it’s easy to get defensive, and maybe not always because what you get defensive about might be indefensible (and deep inside you know it) but sometimes because you perceive the criticism as personal in some way, or you mistake the criticism for being personal, when, really, the critic talks about a bigger picture.

    We probably all do that, from time to time, about different things.

    I agree with that women’s likes and interests are too often belittled and looked down upon, and that it’s easy to see criticism of yaoi, and similar genres, as yet another way to dismiss what women enjoy to create and consume. It IS not an easy question, because a lot of stuff online that women create and consume are things we’ve done on our own conditions, and much of it is a well-needed counterweight to the mainstream.

    But it’s still a fact that there is a lot of internalized misogyny in stuff women create and consume online, and it can never be a bad thing to discuss that.

    I wish there could be a way to discuss these things, and maybe get rid of it, that could, at the same time, balance with women creating and consuming stuff which caters to our differing needs, interests, sexuality, preferences and kinks, on our own terms.

    Teahouse doesn’t help.

    I know that, people with kinks who do try their best to handle things responsibly, and who are very well aware of consent issues in real life and where the boundaries are, are not helped by people like the Teahouse authors!

    Well, I don’t have the answer to how to make things better, but it can at least not become worse by discussing things.

    However, personally I’m probably not the right person to discuss on their turf. I get too pissed off! I agree, too, that, yes I do have sympathy for them in some ways, because, of course, I’m far from perfect myself.

    I grew up in a way that these things were never discussed in any way shape or form, and in a quite misogynistic “redneck community” (the equivalence of it anyway, since I’m Scandinavian, and not from the US). The little I’ve learned, and become aware of, I’ve had to figure out myself, and probably later in life than I should have.

    There was no Internet when I grew up, and that’s where I’ve learned! When I see very young people today who discuss at forums and communities and are so well-versed and aware and argues so well, I get very encouraged and hopeful. They are a million times smarter than I was at that age, and that is just so good to see! :-)

    I should be more hopeful then, when I see people online who reason and think like the worst of the Teahouse fans, that they can change too, and that the good arguments are out there for them to, hopefully, find!

    But, most of the times I just get angry and frustrated and discouraged… and go rant where I think people will know what I mean, instead. So, yes, I do have some sympathy, but it too often drowns in frustration.

    • Well put!

      I do occasionally feel bad about bashing yaoi because it’s one of the few genres by and for women (mostly) that helps release dark aspects of their sexuality safely and that it can be SUCH an easy target. Though I maintain (just like you) it’s important to discuss and call out problematic material. Nothing should get a free pass. It’s a shame that the most popular romance writers are the most problematic. (E.L James, Nakamura from Junjou Romantica, Emirain from Teahouse, etc.)

      In the very least, we should all have a space to rant about this stuff, and I’m more than happy to provide it. :)

      (You’re Swedish? Awesome! I’m always surprised and delighted by how diverse my reader base is!)

      • Rita says:

        You can count at least two scandinavians in your ranks then – Representing Denmark here.

      • Wanda says:

        At the same time, there IS good yaoi and m/m stuff that’s not insanely offensive. I totally understand how m/m material can help women figure out their own sexualities without the power imbalance and gender stereotypes that are so prevalent in het romances (hell, that’s why I like it so much), but I’ve seen some hella awesome smutty m/m stuff that emphasizes safe and consensual sex while also being kinky as hell. As it becomes more mainstream, I expect more from it in general.

        (Plus I think it’s important to consider the minority being represented: gay men. To portray them in homophobic and heteronormative ways is doing them a disservice, especially when it’s written by straight women who have privilege over them ((in one way at least))).

        • Bastet says:

          Yes, thanks! That’s another perspective I neglected to think about.

          There is a lot of internalized misogyny, and fetishization of minorities, and also, minimization of other minorities.

          It’s complicated, and I can’t claim I’m absolutely not, ever, ever part of the problem, just because I’m able to point out such obvious examples as Teahouse and 50 Shades.

          I love m/m, and have for many years. I try to think, and write, differently, and with another awareness, these days, and some of my older stuff, I’d do differently today. But yeah…

          I want to create and consume stuff that appeals to me, or interests me (it’s not all kink, there is an interest in the non-gratuitous look at the harsh conditions of a dystopic society as well) beside the mainstream, on my own conditions, as a white bisexual cis-woman with some kinks – but what other aspects am I missing/not considering/perpetuating/not helping with??

          I do my best to handle it all in a responsible way, and to look at myself now and then. Some time back, I did myself start a discussion on my LJ (friendlocked, I think) about how I portrayed a female character in a very old story that I wrote back in 1999/2000). I still liked the idea of the story, but it was incredibly badly written (language-wise, my English has become a bit better with time) and so I wanted to do a major revision. But when looking it over to see what I could do, I realized I had made a terrible female portrait, and I could no longer stand behind that. Problem was, a big part of the plot depended on it.

          I guess I decided that either I find a way to change the plot, or I scrap the story.

          So, I’m not beyond changing and “calling myself out”. But then… I’m just as likely to have a blind spot about things, too, or not even thinking about stuff in where I’m privileged, or getting defensive about yet other things.

          I guess in many ways, one always have to start with oneself!

          • Wanda says:

            I am not a gay man, but in my experience I’ve found that at least a significant number of them are fine with women writing m/m because it means more gay stories that they can read. I also think it’s different with them than it is with straight dudes writing lesbian porn, because men aren’t so used to be objectified and sexualized. So while I’m sure many of them hate cliched yaoi that gives them gender roles (as do I), I think they’re less reactive to objectification by women than a lesbian would be to objectification by the most privileged group: straight men. Gay men don’t come from a history of being denied rights by straight ladies. Sure straight ladies are super annoying when they have their bachlorette parties at gay clubs, but women as a group have never kept them from voting or, like, owning property. So there’s that.

            I know Sunstone is a lesbian comic made by a (presumably) straight man, and I’ve yet to hear any lesbians complain about it. If a story is done well and inoffensively, generally people don’t care who it was written by.

            By now I think women have a pretty good handle on writing gay men. But writing black people is a different story. Can’t tell you how many slash writers are like “I don’t write black people because I don’t know the culture!” of course ignoring the fact that they are WOMEN writing about GAY MEN and most likely don’t have access to gay male culture. Oh, the willful ignorance of well-intentioned white people.

      • Bastet says:

        it’s one of the few genres by and for women (mostly) that helps release dark aspects of their sexuality safely

        Yes, this is one aspect, but, yeah… not enough reason not to call things out. It complicates stuff, it doesn’t invalidate discussion.

        E. L. James… Don’t get me started… Sorry, too late! :-)

        First, I guess I couldn’t say much about the literary qualities of 50 shades, since I haven’t read the book (and I most likely won’t – not my kink!) but I’m willing to believe the people who have, and review it as badly written and badly handled BDSM.

        For the most part, that’s where I would have stopped thinking about it. There’s a lot of bad erotica out there, some of which I will still read if the kink appeals to me, by all means. The flesh is weak :-) and I have my guilty pleasures, too. This book was, apparently, some rather ordinary Twilight fanfic, as well, with the serial numbers filed off, so the author could have it published. I was utterly uninterested.

        Then, for some inexplicable reason (I’ve seen so much fanfic who would deserve it more) the book hit it big, and the mainstream noticed. That’s when I took notice, too.

        At the peak of its popularity the news and the tabloids over here in Sweden, as well, was all over the book. First I just marveled over how the constant angle of the articles seemed to be “This New Thing, That Women Creates Erotica For Women!!!”. *sigh* Yeah, that’s new… not! -.- But worse, it really bothered me how this book was such a godsend to the mainstream.

        The mainstream has always viewed women as passive and submissive, and now here they had the proof – from us women ourselves! When women write erotica – it’s 50 shades, and women – millions of them – love it, so this mainstream portrayal of women, since… forever, must be true! Women are submissive to men! It’s an innate, biological trait!

        It’s BULLSHIT! That’s what it is!

        But yeah, for a while over here, the tabloids (and some of the more serious press, too) were full of articles like “What Women Really Like” and “How To Please Your Woman 50 Shades Style”, and so on…

        Yeah, the media loves this book. They can pretend to be sex positive, entice readers with some “kink light”, and play into every stereotype ever about submissive women and how all we want is a Christian Grey, “legitimately”, because, hey… look at all these women buying the book. You want this, and you know it! -___-

        This kind of stuff do influence how men think. I’ve seen that myself. Just one small example from my own experiences:

        I’d been seeing this guy, and at some point I decided to bring up the fact that I do like me some dominance play in the bed, just to see if he might be open to it. So, we had some pillow talk, and I “tested the waters” a bit, starting with hinting at an interest in playing, not yet getting to specifying what kind, and… The guy interrupts by fucking smacking my ass hard! In my surprise I only managed an indignant “What – the – fuck…!?!” and immediately, and very sheepishly, he apologized, and explained he’d thought that when I started hinting at dominance play, that’s what I wanted. It is… not, what I want! It’s the exact opposite of what I like.

        So, first, no one in real life actually likes being surprised with stuff like this! Unless that is part of an earlier negotiation. No, guys, listen, no matter what, never surprise someone with 50 shades-sex!!! Goodness…

        But also, this guy didn’t even let me finish speaking before he thought he knew what I wanted. He simply just assumed that if a woman starts to hint at being kinky, she must be kinky in this way. The possibility of my interests running in the opposite direction simply never even occurred to him! Woman hints at kink – she must want it 50 shades! -.-

        Now, this isn’t new. I’ve run into the same assumption plenty of times when I was younger, and more active, and way before this book. But, books like 50 shades getting popular, and the mainstream jumping on board sure does not help!

        Now, it gets complicated, because, of course, some women are sexually submissive, and I do wish for them to be able to safely express their sexuality in real life, and/or in fiction, and consume the erotica they like, too – all as they see fit. But I highly doubt they are helped by this book, and its popularity with the mainstream either.

        So, what I’m saying is, people will always write bad erotica, and hopefully most of it will just endure the obscurity of the net. But the popularity and the spread of this book, cheered on by the mainstream, makes it something else – and it’s not good.

        Why IS it so popular? Women with mainly sub inclinations, who are into BDSM, do not seem to like it, because it doesn’t depict a safe, sane and consensual relationship. Women who are kinky in other ways (and yes, mainstream culture, we do exist and we aren’t that few) certainly do not like it. It won’t appeal to us at all. Why does it appeal to so many other women???

        Well, thanks for providing the space to rant, I fear I sometimes overuse it :-)

        • Honestly I wouldn’t classify 50 shades as BDSM at all. For one they screw up all the technical sides safe, sane, consensual and all that, and the other side of that is the vast majority of the ~kinky fuckery~ isn’t really kinky at all. There’s a lot of stictly vanilla sex and when it gets ~kinky~ it’s spanking, light bondage, and pretty basic toy use like vibrators, butt-plugs, and ben-wa balls.

          I must admit I giggled when I read that Sweden had described it as, “OMG A WOMAN WROTE PORN FOR WOMEN, THAT IS SO FRESH AND RADICAL!”

          The thing that gets me is not that the female lead is submissive sexually…is that she’s a total fucking insufferable doormat from beginning to end. Her only accomplishment is bagging ~the best man~ and she’s frequently saying, “Well if any OTHER guy did that it’d be creepy…but it’s Christian ~super handsome and wealthy~ Grey!”

          I’m pretty sure ALL OVER there were advertisements to “Please your Woman 50 shades style!” If you really want to do it 50 shades style, keep a list of people she’s allowed to see and strictly enforce it. (Legit thing from the book.)

          But also, this guy didn’t even let me finish speaking before he thought he knew what I wanted. He simply just assumed that if a woman starts to hint at being kinky, she must be kinky in this way. The possibility of my interests running in the opposite direction simply never even occurred to him! Woman hints at kink – she must want it 50 shades! -.-

          Exactly! People ~assume~ things about women’s sexuality that are not true what-so-ever. I had a friend tell me an ex of her “thought she’d like” if he shoved her to the wall and kissed her aggressively. It caused her to freak out, not cool buddy.

          You’re right there will always be bad erotica, but I am glad in the fact that this stuff is getting called out more and more. I’m glad there is a 50 shades backlash.

          • Bastet says:

            As I said, I haven’t read the book, but… Really, it isn’t more than that?

            *LOL* It was embarrassing how often they seemed to angle it like that, as if women haven’t done that for forever. But the tabloids don’t have a clue, Sweden has a lot of Slash/Yaoi/m/m fans and plenty of people into fandom. We’re a small country, so we will always be a minority online, but there are still quite a few, so, yeah… embarrassingly clueless press :-)

            Ah, yes, the “Abuser is hot, so abuse is okay”-trope -.-

            I still don’t get why this book got so big (though, as I said above, “the woman is a doormat” fits with the mainstream’s assumptions, so of course they will help spread it, but – at least in “on the surface politically correct Sweden” they wouldn’t have dared to, if it wasn’t already so popular). That is one of the most common tropes ever! Why just this book? I still don’t get it!

            Yes, as we’ve said so many times, there IS a discussion going on, and that’s good!

          • The vast majority of the sex just had some form of spanking, light bondage, and toy play. Though he does wail on her ass with the buckle side of a belt once. That caused her to break up with him which didn’t last for a week. There was some sensory deprivation which was just a blindfold and headphones. He hit her in the clit with a crop once (which made her cum even though she had never had a crop used on her before lol yeah sure.) There was one scene of edging (i.e getting her close to orgasm and denying her) he did it to “get back at her” for leaving the house which actually prevented her from being kidnapped. Then he got really pissed off that she safe worded on him cause yeah safe wording is a personal insult to doms. There was one weird RP scene where they fought each other so Christian could dominate her…sorta rape roleplay I guess…it was kind of confusing since I think Ana’s way of fighting back was to spit water in his mouth?

            Ana was supposed to take on a sub role, as in not look him in the eye and call him master and etc…but from what I remember she didn’t really do that? ….Though I suppose I read a sporking not the actual thing so it’s hard for me to say.

            I must admit it’s a bit surprising it got so big. I think a couple of reasons could be how easy it was to purchase on a phone or kindle, and the backlash increased its popularity. (No such thing as bad publicity.)

          • cc says:

            @baset
            Well as you heard, it was a fanfic of Twilight and Twilight’s rise to popularity, I have no idea but it is not unheard of for someone to really… well for lack of a better term, milk a fanbase for money.

            I’m not sure which “reality” I’d rather go with, that women kinky literature REALLY only has bottom of the barrel available to it OR that people are that easy to “dupe” with painfully familiar things (cliches, tired adaptions of preexisting things, etc.).

          • Bastet says:

            @cc

            Yes, I suppose a big part of the popularity can be a simple as that – it’s riding on the popularity wave of Twilight! It almost turns it into a question of infinite regression… Why is Twilight so popular… As fap also mentioned easy availability might play a role as well, along with peoples’ tendency to catch up on what is in at the moment = more popularity feeds more popularity. For a while it turns into a self-perpetuating thing…

            Well, I’m sure E. L. James is laughing all the way to the bank!

          • Bastet says:

            Thanks for explaining these key scenes from the book! As far as I can see, it simply depicts an abusive relationship, where the woman isn’t able to fully see it as such. Now, in a way, I don’t mind such depictions in themselves, it’s, again, how they frame it, which is the problem!

            Two caveats about this book in particular: Had they framed it differently it wouldn’t necessarily have meant it would have become a good book, just because of that. It could still have been badly written, and simply a shitty book, based on literary criteria. And, I would probably still not have been interested in reading it, since I, as a pure personal preference, enjoy reading stories more where the woman is in the dominant role.

            But I don’t mind stories which depicts relationships which are fucked up, abusive, dysfunctional, or even disturbing. On the contrary, I like dark, tragic and twisted stories. Melodrama and angst are my guilty pleasures. But I want it framed as such! Not as something that is romantic, sweet, or an ideal!

            The characters don’t have to be aware, but I want the authors and the audience to be!

            I guess 50 Shades is in the same category as Teahouse here, because they have the same problem. A work of fiction about dysfunctional relationships, with characters who aren’t aware of the dysfunction they are involved in – but which is presented by the authors, and defended by the fans, as being something quite different.

            Then there are artistic and literary flaws as well, but yeah, that’s the main problem with these works. And the dissonant way in which these works are presented, contra what they actually show, draws from a dysfunctional culture around us, feeds off it, mirrors it, and at the same time perpetuates it, and teaches it to more people, normalizes it.

            The blurb on the backside of the 50 Shades novel could have just said something like: “Christian Grey, a rich, entitled man starts a dysfunctional and controlling sexual relationship with a naïve woman, who, due to society’s expectations, disregards her inner warning bells at Grey’s behavior to have a much sought after relationship with a handsome and wealthy man.”

            And I wouldn’t have had any problems with it. (Probably wouldn’t have generated any “How To Have 50 Shades Sex With Your Girlfriend”-articles either!)

            Still wouldn’t have been my thing though…

          • Bastet says:

            Almost spamming you today, sorry :-)

            I realized I had no idea what the actual blurb of the book says, so went to Amazon to check it out. It says:

            “When literature student Anastasia Steele goes to interview young entrepreneur Christian Grey, she encounters a man who is beautiful, brilliant, and intimidating. The unworldly, innocent Ana is startled to realize she wants this man and, despite his enigmatic reserve, finds she is desperate to get close to him. Unable to resist Ana’s quiet beauty, wit, and independent spirit, Grey admits he wants her, too—but on his own terms.

            Shocked yet thrilled by Grey’s singular erotic tastes, Ana hesitates. For all the trappings of success—his multinational businesses, his vast wealth, his loving family—Grey is a man tormented by demons and consumed by the need to control. When the couple embarks on a daring, passionately physical affair, Ana discovers Christian Grey’s secrets and explores her own dark desires.

            Erotic, amusing, and deeply moving, the Fifty Shades Trilogy is a tale that will obsess you, possess you, and stay with you forever.”

            No further comments, I guess, except… It’s a trilogy now?? Didn’t know that. Well, now she’s gone from milking the Twilight success, to milking her own :-)

          • It has been a trilogy for awhile, same as twilight. Hit books comes in threes its seems. E.L James has been considering writing a sequel to the trilogy from Christian Grey’s perspective from what I hear. Let’s continue to rip off from Twilight and also this will totally justify what he does because he’ll non-stop monolog about, “I love her! She’s so great! I would never hurt her…except yes I would!”

            BTW I’m hugely annoyed by the ~famous line~ repeated here that Grey’s tastes are very singular. No, no singular means one you can’t be very ONE. You either have a singular interest or not and it would be taste not tastes you stupid simp. God damn it Ana you’re supposed to be an English major and Grey speaks a couple of languages how would you not key in on this?! FUCK!

        • Wanda says:

          At times when I’m really bored, I go on Craigslist and look at the casual encounters postings because it’s always good for a laugh, and let me tell you: for the most part, men are clueless about domination. They say they’re doms, but they sound like terrible ones. There was only one post I recall in which the guy had proper spelling and grammar and explained that a dom’s job was to cater to the sub and make sure they enjoyed it, that D/S was in a way the dom servicing a sub . . . which put it into perspective for me.

          I’m sure that guy got mad replies. The others, though, that are all “You WILL submit to me!” in a four line paragraph are deluding themselves. It’s kind of sad.

          • Bastet says:

            Yeah, what they are missing is that it’s basically about trust and communication!!! That’s where you have to start!

          • Rita says:

            Haha, I’m glad to know that I’m not the only one who does that! Craigslist is quite the pandoras box of wtf-ery.
            There’s some real skeevy gems in the housing/roommate category as well, I’ve found. Weirdos who basically want a lady to move in as their personal sex slave/mom and stuff like that.
            And yes, I’ve seen those “I SHALL DOMINATE YOU, YOU SLUTTY SLUT” posts as well. Some of them sound like downright serial killers, cliche as that phrase may be.

          • Wanda says:

            I will say this about Craigslist: it makes me feel slightly better about the world of dating, because honestly, there are men who like all kinds of weird things. Small tits? There’s a kink for that! Hairy? Oh, they’ll bang ya. Obese? Just what that guy’s looking for!

            Craigslist is how you can see the world as the messy kinky place it really is. SInce it’s so anonymous, everyone can be as weird as they like.

    • Wanda says:

      There were some people bitching about the people bitching about 50 Shades of Grey, saying that such harsh criticism of that book was “misogynist”. Which is bullshit. That book is insanely harmful to real life women, and we need to talk about that MORE, not less. Just because it’s written by a woman doesn’t mean I can’t say it’s a piece of crap. Is stuff written by James Patterson and Dan Brown a piece of crap? Maybe. But it’s not introducing people to a lifestyle that, if done wrong or without education, can be dangerous and prime for abuse. It’s like Sarah Palin. Sure, she’s a woman. But I’m not going to vote for a woman who will enact policy that actively hurts women.

      At the same time, people who discount the Hunger Games as “the next shitty Twilight” need to shut it. XD Those movie are one of the very few where I can watch a woman be competent and fend for herself all without being sexualized. It felt good. It felt really, really good. (The books too, obviously, but there are lots of books about competent non-sexualized women. Hollywood movies . . . not so much). Unfortunately, the 50 Shades movie exists so . . . one step forward, two steps back.

      In summary, I don’t feel bad about making fun of media made by women for women if it’s shitty. If they’re 15, maybe I’ll hold my tongue. But if they’re in their thirties (or forties, like E.L. James) they can take it like a grown up.

  11. Bastet says:

    At great risk to myself this brief message is smuggled out with a one legged carrier pigeon. But the truth has to get out there!

    All the comments I’ve made here… it wasn’t really me!

    You see, I was happy at home as usual, reading my western yaoi comics, loving Atros, and fangirling about him with the rest! When suddenly… The Soviet police broke down my door and sent me – without trial, mind you – to the Siberia!

    I’m in GULAG!

    I endure unspeakably bad conditions, every day, and are forced, under threat of execution, to rant against internalized misogyny!

    HELP – I’m being indoctrinated and are not here on this blog of my own free will!!!!

    True story, people!

    • You found out about my secret plan! That I am running an international concentration camp which forces people around the globe to become sex positive feminists that rail against ignorant portrayals of problematic sexuality and gender expression! HAHAHA!

      Every morning every one of my minions must quote Betty Friedan and I attach electrodes to their brains as I show them pictures of anime boys kissing other anime boys! If they refuse to be a part of such a nefarious scheme…they can click off my website…I uhhh I mean I cage them up and throw ice water on them!

      MWHAHAHAHAAHAHA!

      (Seriously though your post is hilarious!)

      • Bastet says:

        Ha ha ha, damn!! The truth is out! :-D

        I couldn’t help myself, that comment up there, comparing discussing women’s issues on a blog to indoctrination of political prisoners in Gulag… If that wasn’t a troll, then that was the most hilariously hyperbolic analogy I’ve seen in a long time.

    • Wanda says:

      Don’t forget the discussion panels (I mean INDOCTRINATION SESSIONS) you are forced to attend, such as:

      White People: Why They Deserve to Die

      The Underground Society CIS-SCUM and Their Obsession with Their Genitals

      BURN BRAS AND FUCK MEN (FIGURATIVELY OBVIOUSLY. EW DUDES ARE TOTES GROSS )

      The Vegan Crisis: Are Farms Concentration Camps?

      How to Cure Yourself of Heterosexuality in Three Easy Steps (The First Step is Castration . . . BREEDER!)

      If you’re not foaming at the mouth demanding a soy latte and a FEMINIST KILLJOY shirt by the end of it, we make you do hard labor for, like, four hours because more than that would be totes harsh and you gotta have enough time to knit that cozy for your guinea pig.

    • cc says:

      I love big brother Faps onii-chan!

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